I think I won the FP (keep comments civil please)

"GhostZ" (GhostZ) 08/26/2014 at 16:51 • Filed to: None

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Got a burner to go all caps on me, with HIV and Ebola threats. It was about street racing, obviously. Of course it would be . Ugh.

I don't want to go into details (you can read it yourself if you're that desperate, it's nothing fancy) but it started off as a simple defusing of the "take it to the track" argument then he started pulling out economics. The best I can gather, this was his proposal:

We should take licenses away from street racers (ignoring the fact that we already do) and because they wont' street race, it means that private owners will start to open up tracks for them, and that will make them go to the track, where they will pay a premium to be able to enjoy themselves in a safe environment that will keep the tracks self-sustaining. Why should we do this? Because street racers commit the greatest sin possible: putting other people's lives at risk unwillingly, and policy is too relaxed in that it keeps allowing it to happen.

This ignored the reasons behind street racing, the cost of enforcement, the inability to scale track space, the size, frequency, number, and distribution of street racers, the cost of life involved, the source of funding for tracks, and the difficulty in maintaining profitability on a track. It just... assumed that it would work out as long as we took licenses away and had a no-tolerance policy against it.

Each one of those harsh realities is as a nail in a coffin against the "take it to the track" argument. It sounded like the sort of 'meaningful' suggestions a 16 year old writes in his blog that would just fix the world if people just did them. As someone who sort of prides himself in knowing both sides of the issue fairly well, it rubbed me the wrong way.

Also, FYI, take it to the track is a great suggestion to your friend, but does not work as a suggestion to fixing the problem.

MIATAAAA > GhostZ 08/26/2014 at 16:57

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New rule: don't respond to any burner accounts.

I recently instituted this rule for myself and it has worked wonders on my soul.

GhostZ > MIATAAAA 08/26/2014 at 16:58

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But it's so fuuuunnnn.

deekster_caddy > GhostZ 08/26/2014 at 17:01

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How do you know if a burner account?

crowmolly > GhostZ 08/26/2014 at 17:02

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Well, if you ignore:

1.) That dragstrips are closing up or are under constant fire (E-town I'm looking at you)

2.) Some street racers want to do it because it's not regulated (NHRA rules, etc) and gambling is easy

3.) That taking a license away from a street racer has the same effect that regulating gun ownership among criminals has- which is to say zero

4.) Reiterating number 1 again- some tracks are HOURS away and nobody wants a dragstrip in their town

yamahog > MIATAAAA 08/26/2014 at 17:14

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I, for one, loooooove the dismiss button.

Gamecat235 > GhostZ 08/26/2014 at 17:38

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The "take it to the track" argument certainly has some logical limitations (availability and proximity being the most reasonable of them), however the reasons you also list (anti-establishment? That's a personal issue. Cost? Can't afford the consequences, don't follow through with the actions.) are rationales for anti-social, lawbreaking behaviors which are seeking to justify illegal behavior.

Arresting street racers, impounding their cars and revoking their licenses would have the impact of resolving the issue for many people. For those fools who are too rich or too dumb to care about the safety of others, there are prisons and jails for this. It is akin to shooting guns in places other than sanctioned ranges, you are potentially taking the lives of others into your own hands for your own enjoyment. Does it often end tragically? No. When it does should the entire book be thrown at them and their enablers? Absolutely.

My personal advice? Don't feed the trolls, and don't try to justify illegal behavior which endangers other people and property.

GhostZ > Gamecat235 08/26/2014 at 17:48

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No such thing as a personal issue when deciding these things. If people rebel against the establishment, then that is a real issue you must find a way to fix, if such a way exists that won't cause more harm than good.

Same goes for cost, just because you wouldn't choose to 'afford the consequences' doesn't mean others, who are in drastically different situations with drastically different needs, would. You can't handwave that, because they still do it . This is about solving a real problem, not saying that people should change their minds. If they should, but aren't, then that means you have to find a way to make it happen or accept that it won't.

Basically, if you're trying to untie a knot, you can't say "Oh, well, if I was tying this knot, I would have done this, because the way you tied it wasn't very smart" and hope that it unties the knot. You have to actually figure out how and why it was tied the way it was, and then take the steps to untie it. And it if turns out that it would take you 20 years to undo it, even if you did understand the problem? Move on. There are bigger fish to fry.

As for what you said, yeah, impounding and revoking licenses works. And that's what is mostly done when it becomes a problem. Personally, I think the policies are as strict as they can be for the level of good they do, some states do turn a blind eye to it in certain situations, but there's shockingly few deaths that result. It's more or less that they turn a blind eye because they can't afford to pull the officers away, than that they are condoning the action.

Gamecat235 > GhostZ 08/26/2014 at 17:57

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Rebelling is a choice. As is speeding or racing. Therefore these are choices, which by definition makes them personal issues. I won't get along with anyone who condones this, nor with anyone who condones other knowingly dangerous activities that have a high degree of risk to those around them.

When people rebel against the establishment in place, that is the general definition of the justification for the placement and enforcement of laws. Automating all vehicles is the ultimate solution and the only one which will completely remove the problem. And I'll absolutely blame everyone who street races or drives drunk as part of the reason why I have to give up control when this inevitably happens.

GhostZ > Gamecat235 08/26/2014 at 18:07

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They're choices that you don't control though. You can only control the environment, not the actual people, and that comes at a heavy price. You can hate it all you want, it doesn't change the situation at all.

We have laws that are in place and enforced, and they do a good job. You are completely justified in blaming and hating these people, there is nothing wrong with that and I will stand right there with you and denounce how stupid it is to do it, but there is no justifiable argument for going through the difficulties of institutionally pursuing them more if your goal is to improve society, rather than just punish street racers. That's just the world we live in right now.

I think you have helped me put it all into one sentence: You don't have to condone those who do it to recognize that, with the current technology and system we have, preventing it would be worse for society.

Perhaps the solution would be to create an incredibly cheap technological solution that could be implemented with minimal tax cost, and would prevent the few deaths from street racing from happening without enabling different crimes to happen. Such a thing does not exist though, although video games remain the closest thing to that kind of device.

GhostZ > crowmolly 08/26/2014 at 18:11

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I imagine if every street racer in the US showed up at the nearest track to them, the lines would be so long that the tracks would hemorrhage parking space.

But yeah, completely ignore those 4 things (and the numerous other problems with enforcement costs and how to change the system) the whole problem seems really simple then! Unfortunately, it's not.

GhostZ > deekster_caddy 08/26/2014 at 18:12

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I assumed. No avatar, weird name, seems like it.

mcseanerson > MIATAAAA 08/26/2014 at 18:12

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This is the one thing that I enjoyed with the return of the grey. When someone says something completely stupid to me in a reply to one of my comments and I get ready to rage on them and realize they're grey and nobody will ever see them if I don't reply. And I leave them there to rot.

crowmolly > GhostZ 08/26/2014 at 18:16

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Yeah, I didn't even scratch the surface of enforcement.

Chasing down a 900hp Camaro in a Crown Vic is going to be laughable. And "you can't outrun a radio" but you can turn off your lights and hide since it's probably night time.

GhostZ > crowmolly 08/26/2014 at 18:21

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Also, who the hell wants to pay full time cops to chase and investigate guys who run? Unless you're in a big city where they can throw 30 cars at you and have a few helicopters in the air at all times, there comes a point where you're not worth chasing anymore.

GhostZ > yamahog 08/26/2014 at 18:22

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I've actually never dismissed a comment. I'm too eager to learn, I guess.

crowmolly > GhostZ 08/26/2014 at 18:24

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All that shit for what, a fine, license loss, impound, and maybe jail time? No way is that a good enough reason to fire out 10 cruisers and a chopper.

GhostZ > crowmolly 08/26/2014 at 18:29

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A guy had that happen to him in Chicago after he ran a red light. Got scared, and bolted after the cops turned the lights on. When he didn't stop, they assumed he was carrying drugs. Turned out he was just scared and didn't want to go to prison. They shot him dead after he wrecked his car. Excessive force, excessive policing, minor crime.

It's a bad system, to be sure.